Wood Burner Oil Boiler FrankenHybrid

[jackpreacher]

So how do you move your heat from Franken heater Jack ,is it Hydronic panels system or do you have a pipe network laid under the floor ?.
I would love a heated slab in my house, but cutting up the floor and laying the pipes isn't really an option .

Just a regular hydronic system - radiators in every room running on 22mm supply and return pipes and 10mm branches off to the radiators. FrankieB shoves most of his heat (by a 30W pump) into the 22mm return line by means of a flat plate heat exchanger so the main central heating water and FrankieB's water don't actually mix.

The thermal mass sitting on top of the stove is the icing on the cake as it stays toasty for 12 hours - not as long as a Finnish heater but a lot cheaper to build

Most Wood boilers in the UK have wraparound or clip-in boilers which cool the combustion chamber and so make the whole process less efficient as the wood gas isn't properly burnt. When FrankieB is lit he sounds like a rocket stove - as there is a 1000mm horizontal flue that is twin walled and covered with 10" of RockWool so that a really powerful force is added to the natural chimney draught and it drags combustion air through the stove like a 'whooooosh.......'..

I agree with you about the amount of work required to dig up a floor just to have a heated slab although you could build a heated wall ?..".just as good.

[jackpreacher]

Now this is a very interesting piece of equipment thanks for sharing it with the rest of us

Mog.

You're very welcome - just don't tell BC.."

[jackpreacher]

FrankieB all tiled and roaring

Here is FrankieB all tiled and roaring. When he's fired up like this the firebox temperature is 500C. The thermal mass gets up to a maximum of 200C at the bottom and 120C at the top. When the fire goes out the whole of the thermal mass emits heat all night - the first time I experienced this it reminded me of how much heat is wasted up the chimney from a regular wood stove, let alone open fireplace. Also, the pellet boiler is adding nothing to the central heating until the fire in FB starts to go out. More data in January.

FrankieB tiled.jpg

[jackpreacher]

Terrible smell - yuk.....

After putting this thread to bed for a couple of weeks we noticed a god-awful stink coming from FB....a bit like overheated Bakelite..terrible. It turns out that the Bakelite handle of the stove MELTED and gassed off.... I did mention that this was a cheap stove didn't I?

Handle was swiftly removed and chucked outside - smell remedied. lesson learnt?.....if you line your firebox with firebrick and insulated firebrick you'll melt stuff if you're not careful


..till January.......

[jackpreacher]

Anatomy of FrankieB

An anatomical diagram of the whole Masonry/Hydronic heat recapture system. The only thing missing from this diagram is a thermostatic mixing valve added in the loop to keep the water in FrankieB up to 60C, otherwise this is how it is. In January I'm going to add some bumbling to let FB heat up 700 litres of DHW before transferring heat to the central heating system.

FrankieB Anatomy.jpg

Costs so far:
1. The plate heat exchanger and pump came from the old oil boiler.
2. The insulated and regular firebricks are probably £0.80 each, totalling £30'ish
3. Pipe Stat: £25
4. Copper: FREE from kept off-cuts
5. PEX pipe: FREE from old off-cuts
6. Gate Valves, stopcock, cistern , float valve: FREE from previous system

So, around 55 squids

[Wazza]

Looks like a reasonably cheap form of heating .I have a slow combustion space heater ,now if only I could combine the two......

[Gridley]

I`m not so interested in your woodburning stove as the pellet burner you have.Could you share some info on it?
I`m interested in make,output and cost of pellets.

Edit: Before someone points it out,I`m aware the pellets are wood too. :D

[jackpreacher]

I`m not so interested in your woodburning stove as the pellet burner you have.Could you share some info on it?
I`m interested in make,output and cost of pellets.

Sure.

Model: CTC Ecoflex [Swedish]
Output: 15kW
Efficiency: 95%
Pellet consumption [Maximum]: 3.5kg/hour
Pellet Cost: £0.26/kg in bag form or £0.20/kg in loose/blown pellet form
Cost New: £7500 including FAT, or thereabouts.
Reliability: 95%. Nothing to go wrong with Pellet Boilers unless you don't de-ash correctly or put in low-grade pellets.
Degree of autonomy: Same as any oil/gas boiler with the exception of de-ashing which is every 1-6 weeks depending on the time of year.
Cheaper than Oil?: Yes. Our fuel costs for the last 12 months have been reduced by 40%.
Cheaper than Gas?: No data.
Advantages: 1. Ideal if you're off the gas grid. 2. Cost of fuel. 3. Efficiency of boiler. 4. Much more comfortable temperature in the property 24 hours a day. The previous oil boiler system heated the property in 2 heating periods a day so the hours between midnight and 07:00 didn't have the heating activated. The pellet boiler works on the principle of lower grade heating for 24 hours a day which maintains a relatively constant indoor temperature. That's why a 15kW pellet boiler can heat such a large property with 8 bedrooms, 2 kitchens, 6 bathrooms and 30 radiators.
Disadvantages: 1.Response time. The property needs 24 hours [in winter] to attain a comfortable temperature from a cold start. 2. Fuel Management - require a lot of space [single garage floor area] to receive and store wood pellets by the ton pallet load.

The picture below shows how the CTC pellet boiler controls the central heating. The heat pump is installed and plumbed in but is not adding anything to the heating yet.

Heating Overview.jpg

[Stock]

Jack what diagram creator are you using?

[jackpreacher]

Jack what diagram creator are you using?

Macromedia Fireworks 8. It's pretty old software but just as good as the day it was bought. Have a good New Year

[Gridley]

Jack,thanks for the comprehensive info.
I`ve been musing about a pellet burner for a couple of years but not gone deep into it.
I`m running a 44kw gas boiler at the moment but it`s efficiency is/was in the low seventies,so not very economical.
We`re also heating a largish property but there`s only two of us rattling about in it.

[jackpreacher]

I`ve been musing about a pellet burner for a couple of years but not gone deep into it.

You're doing the right thing by asking owners of installed pellet boilers.
We picked up ours for £1100 off Ebay, including 8m of twin-walled flue. The story was that the previous owner couldn't get used to loading the pellets etc. also his house wasn't getting warm enough.......he put it down to a fault with the boiler, and hence, sold it. When the boiler arrived via courier he had included a few bags of the pellet fuel - it was sheep feed.
Once the boiler was fed with decent quality pellets [VERDO 6mm] manufactured in a pellet mill in Scotland we have had no problems, in fact we've had less problems than with the previous oil boilers.

If you're practical/hands-on then get a second hand one. We've paid for ours over the last 12 months purely from the savings in the cost of oil versus wood pellets.

[jackpreacher]

Xmas and New Year 2012/13 Wood Fuel savings

Using FrankieB over the Xmas and New Year holiday season has saved 40kg of wood pellets per day compared with previous periods of similar outside temperatures. Plus, our visitors at New Year "complained" the place was like a Sauna - never had that before.
Comparing that figure to the weight of scraps, logs and 'other' wood fuel that was burnt in FB on a daily basis [which can only be calculated on a wheelbarrow load basis] suggests that FB produces 7kW to the central heating system every hour over 24 hours per rental period. This suggest that FB is capable of heating water at a rate well in excess of 7kW on full bore burn. Whatever accuracy I may or may not have figured out in my calculations, FB has reduced the load on the Wood Pellet boiler by an actual 60+% and made the place much warmer - possibly 3C warmer [guess]. Additional benefits are that the wood stove looks prettier than an industrial looking boiler with no window to see the flames. The thermal mass keeps the lounge warm overnight.

So, the project has been a success - we have a really efficient wood boiler from cheap bits and the old oil boiler/furnace. A decent. efficient wood boiler would have cost in the region of £1700-£4000. Check out John Canivan's YouTube channel for interesting ideas on storing hot water. www.youtube.com/user/jcanivan


My next project will be the installation of a hydro-electric generator that will displace the use of wood pellets entirely [all electric heating]. That will be another thread once I get my Volvo EC15B going again.

[Chip]

Really helpful pics, thanks! How long have you had them in place and what brand are they?

[v8druid]

Now this is a very interesting piece of equipment thanks for sharing it with the rest of us

Mog.

Ain't it just - always considered way too much heat goes up the flue on our wood burner - this confirms it!! regrettably little way of doin anything about it here, as you'd guess, having seen it Mog

You're doing the right thing by asking owners of installed pellet boilers.
We picked up ours for £1100 off Ebay, including 8m of twin-walled flue. The story was that the previous owner couldn't get used to loading the pellets etc. also his house wasn't getting warm enough.......he put it down to a fault with the boiler, and hence, sold it. When the boiler arrived via courier he had included a few bags of the pellet fuel - it was sheep feed.
Once the boiler was fed with decent quality pellets [VERDO 6mm] manufactured in a pellet mill in Scotland we have had no problems, in fact we've had less problems than with the previous oil boilers.

If you're practical/hands-on then get a second hand one. We've paid for ours over the last 12 months purely from the savings in the cost of oil versus wood pellets.

Great advice - I'm hands on ok - just don't have the space to be able to utilise this great thread - might in me new workshop though, if/when I ever get it up.

Using FrankieB over the Xmas and New Year holiday season has saved 40kg of wood pellets per day compared with previous periods of similar outside temperatures. Plus, our visitors at New Year "complained" the place was like a Sauna - never had that before.
Comparing that figure to the weight of scraps, logs and 'other' wood fuel that was burnt in FB on a daily basis [which can only be calculated on a wheelbarrow load basis] suggests that FB produces 7kW to the central heating system every hour over 24 hours per rental period. This suggest that FB is capable of heating water at a rate well in excess of 7kW on full bore burn. Whatever accuracy I may or may not have figured out in my calculations, FB has reduced the load on the Wood Pellet boiler by an actual 60+% and made the place much warmer - possibly 3C warmer [guess]. Additional benefits are that the wood stove looks prettier than an industrial looking boiler with no window to see the flames. The thermal mass keeps the lounge warm overnight.

So, the project has been a success - we have a really efficient wood boiler from cheap bits and the old oil boiler/furnace. A decent. efficient wood boiler would have cost in the region of £1700-£4000. Check out John Canivan's YouTube channel for interesting ideas on storing hot water. www.youtube.com/user/jcanivan


My next project will be the installation of a hydro-electric generator that will displace the use of wood pellets entirely [all electric heating]. That will be another thread once I get my Volvo EC15B going again.

Really innovative, creative and down right cunning - great thread