Safe working angles with a Volvo EC15B mini digger

[jackpreacher]

I've been digging a slit trench, 250m long in a clay based soil in Cumbria. Doug, My trusty 1.5 ton EC15B - which is performing magnificently BTW - tests my nerve on the sections which have slopes/gradients as I fear toppling over. My farmer neighbour John came over yesterday afternoon and booted me out of the cab and promptly whizzed all over the slopes at angles which looked really crazy but he insisted that were well within the capabilities of Doug and he was at no time anywhere nearing the toppling point. He has a Kubota 91-2 three ton mini digger which has a much wider track spacing than the EC15B.

My questions to the forum are these:

1. Has anyone toppled a tracked mini digger?....if so, did they know they were on the edge of performance or was it due to external forces?

2. When working on slopes with a M-D do you dig down towards the lower ground or dig 'from above' backwards up the slope?

3. What are the toppling angles of a M-D, as in from front to back and across the width, in particular a 1.5 ton machine....I'm assuming (wrongly??) that most makes of mini- digger at this weight have similar Centre of Gravities.

[Stock]

I've been digging a slit trench, 250m long in a clay based soil in Cumbria. Doug, My trusty 1.5 ton EC15B - which is performing magnificently BTW - tests my nerve on the sections which have slopes/gradients as I fear toppling over. My farmer neighbour John came over yesterday afternoon and booted me out of the cab and promptly whizzed all over the slopes at angles which looked really crazy but he insisted that were well within the capabilities of Doug and he was at no time anywhere nearing the toppling point. He has a Kubota 91-2 three ton mini digger which has a much wider track spacing than the EC15B.

My questions to the forum are these:

1. Has anyone toppled a tracked mini digger?....if so, did they know they were on the edge of performance or was it due to external forces?

2. When working on slopes with a M-D do you dig down towards the lower ground or dig 'from above' backwards up the slope?

3. What are the toppling angles of a M-D, as in from front to back and across the width, in particular a 1.5 ton machine....I'm assuming (wrongly??) that most makes of mini- digger at this weight have similar Centre of Gravities.

Most machines have a similar C of G but it may be located differently. As for safe slopes that up to what you feel comfortable with and the more seat time you get the more comfortable it becomes. As for some one saying a 1:1 slope is safe it may very well be in the right conditions. It's the conditions that are the determining factors always bear that in mind.
When digging a trench for a water pipe I'll always dig down hill as I find it easier to stay parallel to the surface, If I'm digging uphill I have a tendency to try an keep level usually digging too deep as I get a tad careless.
If I'm digging to a level then I prefer to dig up hill checking my level constantly, It doesn't really matter one way or the other some conditions will dictate how the job is to be done you dictate what best and most appropriate to you.......

Stock.

[Muz]

Your questions dont have direct answers Jack, because the environments are so varied that these machines are working in.

However some points can be noted

1.. Yes I have done .. only once, 20 years ago. It was a 3.5 tonne Kubota KH101 with a telescopic dipper and steel tracks. I was loading a dumper and sitting on a pile of sand stone. With a full bucket, I slowed the slew speed, and instead of the bucket slowing.. the undercarriage took off to one side, and the machine lost its footing, and toppled,.. the telescopic dipper was very heavy too which didnt help.

I have to recover plenty of 1.5 tonners though that have gone over that are out on self drive

One of the reasons I favour the EC15, is that it has a lower centre of gravity, and a strong cab, which is not made of heavy steel upper structure. Some makes of digger (Like Kubota KX41 Dash 2) intend the machine to be crained from the top of the cab, and so make the pillars heavier, but also make the machine much more top heavy, if this is coupled with a short (front to back) undercarriage on a 1 tonner its a recipe for trouble .. I hated loading that digger (kx41 dash 2) on the truck .. it was a terrible machine for balance

JCB had the 'great idea' of making some of their models with longitudinal engines under the operators seat .. substantially raising the height of the whole machine ... not a good idea either

2. Slopes are an aquired art .. you have to tackle them as you see them .. the most significant aspect to them from a drivers perspective is how much grip you have,.. and how much power you need to get into the ground. With all minis, the contact you have with the ground is fundamental to how much power you will get at the bucket Its never ideal .. but decent digging can be managed, but the extra factors of balance and contact have to be taken into consideration

If the works you need to undertake are substantial ... consider digging a flat base for your machine to rest on, whilst you carry out the job required.

Propping the machine up on a slope with the dozer blade whilst using offset boom is a recipe for disaster

3. As said there are no hard and fast rules .. but some I adhere to are

a: I try to avoid crossing steep slopes
b: I will go up and down very steep slopes relatively easily if I know I will get the traction , but use my bucket an boom as a counterbalance (even loading it if needs be) or a stopping mechanism if I lose control (but you dont want to do that)
c: steel tracks usually grip better in most conditions than rubbers
d: If you are working on slopes, watch for pulling on roots, or stones and things, which can suddenly give way, and totally alter the balance of your machine


I could go on ... but I need the Khazi

[Stock]

... but I need the Khazi

Hmm after that spiel I thought the pressure would be off..................

[Wee Jim]

I tipped the hitachi ex15-2 I had three times. First time I was straddling a track and fell in it, second I was on a slight hill and it just went over catching me unaware and the third time I was tracking along a mountain and the was a nasty hole in the heather and boom over it was in the blink of an eye, that's why I got the 8018 JCB as it has an under cartridge that can expand!

[jackpreacher]

..... As for some one saying a 1:1 slope is safe it may very well be in the right conditions. It's the conditions that are the determining factors always bear that in mind.

45 degree slope...?.....You must know farmer John......
When we dug a trench last year, on the side of a fell (him in his Kubota) it quite possibly got to around 30 degrees and that was scary just to watch.....
So, if there is grip (and plenty of bottle..) a mini could approach up to 45 degrees, front to back?

[jackpreacher]

I tipped the hitachi ex15-2 I had three times. .....

Hi Jim...so do other EX15-2 operators in general think it is less stable than, say, the Jake you have now?


BTW....did you hurt yourself?

[jackpreacher]

When digging a trench for a water pipe I'll always dig down hill as I find it easier to stay parallel to the surface, If I'm digging uphill I have a tendency to try an keep level usually digging too deep as I get a tad careless.P.

...so if you're digging uphill the gradient can increase the depth of a 'scoop' by stealth?...if you get my drift...?
..hadn't thought of that.

[Muz]

So, if there is grip (and plenty of bottle..) a mini could approach up to 45 degrees, front to back?

I'll tackle pretty much any slope as long as its straight up/down, and I can use anchors, as an experienced operator, but I wont work on it without some conditions I mentioned earlier.

Similarly .. Ive been happy to skate a 13 tonner down a bank before now on a controlled decent .. but I'd not be so happy doing the same with a 1.5 .. it all depends on the machine and the conditions, but in general the smaller ones are harder to handle in that sort of situation because their centres of gravity are higher.

[Stock]

45 degree slope...?.....You must know farmer John......
When we dug a trench last year, on the side of a fell (him in his Kubota) it quite possibly got to around 30 degrees and that was scary just to watch.....
So, if there is grip (and plenty of bottle..) a mini could approach up to 45 degrees, front to back?

I think you got the wrong end of the stick there Jack, a very big thing in all of this is a persons perception of risk, me I hate heights, got a nailbender friend who is happy to work on a roof all day but won't operate a digger hates them with a passion...........

I wouldn't consider a 30 degree slope is bad on a dry day but I may pull a flat base for myself to work. Once while tracking a 30 tonner down a steep grass slope have it slide forwards from 3/4 way up, I sacred the be jeazus of of me but I kept the bucket up and the tracks turning which prevented anything untoward from happening. (heard of a Driver being killed, flipped a 20 tonner while trying to stop himself from slipping coming down a bank of stone )

As for a 1:1, you might track straight up or down it but not work on it.

[Vinpetrol]

Hi Jack

my rule of thumb is if my arsh starts twitching in the seat I get out of the machine and step back and see how it looks. The more you work on slopes you will soon get to know the machines and your limitations, ground conditions will also have a major bearing on the stability of the machine working on gradients. Evaluate every time.

Vin

[jackpreacher]

I have to recover plenty of 1.5 tonners though that have gone over that are out on self drive....

What a PITA
Do you keep the security bond/deposit in those cases?




Thanks for such a detailed answer - I like the tip about making a flat base to work from - that'll come in handy on Friday when I venture up the fell in Doug...

One of the reasons I favour the EC15, is that it has a lower centre of gravity, and a strong cab,

It may well have a low CoG - in fact I know it does - but it looks tall and, therefore, wobbly.....hence the heart-in-mouth moments...............as an extreme sport to generate an adrenalin rush, digging on a steep slope pretty well has it all - for now! When the novelty wears off and I'm digging upside down whilst eating a buttie then the complacency will set in and I bet that's when I topple..........watch this space.

[jackpreacher]

Hi Jack

my rule of thumb is if my arsh starts twitching in the seat I get out of the machine and step back and see how it looks. ..

...there's a man who knows what I'm going through in this teething period...

That's it.........the ole twich in the rumpole region........

You can convince yourself (..as in Me..) the tracks must be half up like the sinking Titanic only to get out and check by eyeball only to discover all is solidly on the ground....it's that damn sensitive middle ear bone thingy balance mechanism that is such a WUSS

[Muz]

The most common reasons for it happening in 1.5 tonners doesnt involve slopes at all you'll be surprised to hear ...

It actually occurs most often when people track over some made up ground or unknown or highly un-even ground backwards .. because they havent looked where they were going (in reverse)

and the next most common is people using off set whilst pulling at something which suddenly gives way, and because the whole machines balance is not something the inexperienced can easily fathom, over she goes

[Vinpetrol]

Your have the right approach Jack , The fact that you are considering the dangers before hand and asking for the advice would tell me you have a good chance of keeping Doug the right side up


Vin