Volvo EC15B wont start. Lights on but no one home..

[Noel_ Colledge]

Hi All

Can you please help me with an issue with my Volvo EC15B.

I have been having the standard issues I have seen mentioned on other posts regarding the machine suddenly stopping, but as mentioned by other people it was not such an issue to me as I just lifted up the arm, started the machine again and away we went. It only really happened a couple of times anyway, cold start up was always straight away, the issues happened as it come up to temperature and then once it got passed this it carried on like a good un.

Any way to the current issue, the machine was working fine and then suddenly stopped after about 10 minutes work. As in the engine cut out mid lift. We have all the lights on including the stop light on the console, but nothing when the key is turned to start the machine.

When trying to restart, key turns to position one, glow light and others go out. Stop light, battery and water temp lights stays on.

I have checked over the following.

Battery is good with full charge

Left hand arm micro switch. Tested for continuity and all working fine when open and closed.

Fuel pump is whoring away in the back ground.

I have disconnected the two blocks to the black magic box as per Muz's post behind the relay and no difference. I would understanding this to mean it is not the oil or water switches anyway but tested as below

The water temp sensor does not show continuity against the body so take it this is open as required.

The oil pressure sensor does show continuity and as this should be closed I take it this is also correct. When the wire is disconnected from the switch though the stop warning light on the dash does go out, but nothing starting. Is this significant?

Ignition switch has never given any problems and all fuses on the fuse board and the two big buggers are present, correct and not blown

As the machine starts OK and cut out while working I am dismissing the starting relay as been ineffective, although not tested. Is my theory OK on this point.??

Also as it started fine would not think it is starter motor or alternator issues.

Which leads me on to the stop solenoid. It has 3 wires so assume it is the ETR type as the ETS seems to only have 2. Not sure how to test this but would it be the cause of my problems? The price of Volvo parts means I don't want to buy one if it does not need it. Is there a common Mitsubishi part number for this item? and if I do need to replace can anyone offer a company and part number. When turning the key there does not seem to be any vibration when touching it to confirm if the solenoid is engaging or not, but no expert so this might be normal. This there an in line fuse for this somewhere other than the main fuse block?

Failing that, my current logical thinking and know how is exhausted, can any one offer any further ideas as to why it would suddenly die, not start again and what I can check out.

Thanks for you help.

[Mattir]

Hi.

Excellent description of the troubleshooting. You seem to have done your homework by reading some of the material available here.

I`ll read the story and come back with something, but it is highly likely that Muz, the EC15B guru, might have an answer already.

[Mattir]

The stop-solenoid has 2 wires and 2 solenoid windings against the ground. See attached pic. Solenoid get 12V from the start relay and when the engine starts, the RE4 takes over and energizes the stop solenoid and fuel pump. If the RE4 fails it stalls the engine as it is the main safety circuit relay.

Take a dive into the relay assembly and check that RE4 is properly connected.

B85ED23C-1093-4E48-B5C4-CB8EF83EA843.jpg

One more thing: Guess u have checked the air filter sensor 5 is ok as well ?

Another thing: check alternator connections. The flat connector at the back of the alt. might have a poor connection.

3rd: disconnect the oil pressure switch SE3 by pulling the flat connector off. Then try starting. This solved my issue.

[Muz]

The way to test the black box under the seat is to leave it all connected in situ ... run the machine and get your hand in there a gently press some wires, cos it was always a broken wire going into the resin, ...if she cuts out .. theres your answer .. most notably a blue, white or black earth wire IIRC. Stop solenoids are pretty reliable and run energised though so if power is cut .. the machine shuts down.

[Muz]

should follow that .. in actual fact the most common cause of stoppage was a failed water temp sender, just disconnect that and tape off the lead and see if shee keeps a runnin '

[Noel_ Colledge]

Thanks both for the feedback.

Muz, I have not tried starting with the water temp disconnected so will try that, thanks.

Your comment about checking the black box, I can't at the moment get the machine started so unable to do as you described until I have overcome that hurdle. I was only commenting on that point as I read from your post that disconnecting this box if there was a problem with the box, oil pressure switch or water sensor that bypassing in this way you were able to start the engine in your case, therefore concluding I could eliminate these issues or have I got that point wrong?

Mattir, I have checked what I believe is the air filter sensor, but to be sure.Is that the item that looks like a car cigarette lighter without the pop out bit or the item attached to the filter?. Guess it will be the later. I had thought about the RE4 but have not checked fully yet so will have a nose at that to see if we have wire issues. I will check the alternator connections as well thanks.

I did try disconnecting the oil pressure switch spade and as mentioned got all excited when the stop lights went out, but still did not start the beast

Thanks

[Muz]

Muz, I have not tried starting with the water temp disconnected so will try that, thanks.

Your comment about checking the black box, I can't at the moment get the machine started so unable to do as you described until I have overcome that hurdle. I was only commenting on that point as I read from your post that disconnecting this box if there was a problem with the box, oil pressure switch or water sensor that bypassing in this way you were able to start the engine in your case, therefore concluding I could eliminate these issues or have I got that point wrong?

Mattir, I have checked what I believe is the air filter sensor, but to be sure.Is that the item that looks like a car cigarette lighter without the pop out bit or the item attached to the filter?. Guess it will be the later. I had thought about the RE4 but have not checked fully yet so will have a nose at that to see if we have wire issues. I will check the alternator connections as well thanks.

I did try disconnecting the oil pressure switch spade and as mentioned got all excited when the stop lights went out, but still did not start the beast

Thanks

Ok so we are in different territory here .. it now wont start at all ? if it is the solenoid look for smoke from the exhaust on turnover .. no smoke = solenoid shut

[Noel_ Colledge]

Ok so we are in different territory here .. it now wont start at all ? if it is the solenoid look for smoke from the exhaust on turnover .. no smoke = solenoid shut

Hi Muz

I have no cranking, as mentioned the lights come on at ignition position 1 so I know I have power, but when the key is turned to position 2 there is nothing so unable to test for smoke at the moment.

This is why I was wondering if there was a way of testing if the solenoid firstly has power and then if it can hold it through the 2 coils.

That way I assume that the start stop is energised through relay RE4 so if this is not working correctly it wont get as far as the unit, bit a least it is narrowed down as Mattir mentioned

Thanks

[ianoz]

If you can get at the starter , i would try screwdriver from solenoid to power pole , see if it turns over and starts

[Mattir]

By disconnecting the oil pressure sensor, and being able to switch off the alarm lights, you might have proven the alarm unit functional. Good news.

As you have no cranking at all, the ECU unit is not the prime suspect. The safety circuits shut the engine down within 5 seconds from successful start. If that happens, you have an issue with the black box Muz mentioned.

I would suspect the starter relay circuitry as you have all the warning lights on before start attempt. Guess the glow plug timer works as well and the yellow light switches off after 5 seconds?

The starter relay circuitry is easy to test. If the yellow glow plug light in the alarm panel switches on and switches off in 5 seconds, the starter relay RE1 and key switch are ok. If not, you have an issue with starter relay RE1. After this simple test your prime suspect remains to be the starter motor and its solenoid. The flat connector in the solenoid might have loosened. Ianoz advise is worth trying as well.

We have national midsummer festivities here and I have a looot if time to help :)

happy troubleshooting :)

[Noel_ Colledge]

Hi Mattir

The glow light plug does come on initially and goes off again after around 5 seconds as normal, I will try out all the suggestions mentioned today though and report back with results.

Thanks

- - - Updated - - -

Hi Mattir

The glow light plug does come on initially and goes off again after around 5 seconds as normal, I will try out all the suggestions mentioned today though and report back with results.

Thanks

[Mattir]

Have studied the starter circuit a bit further and the hydraulics safety relay 13 is involved in this case as well. When you turn the key switch on, the RE13 allows 12V to the starter relay positive side in case the safety port switch allows that (makes contact ie. left joystick armrest is up). Only when these conditions are met, can the engine start. Key switch only operates the solenoid of the starter.

Actually the glow time relay gets energized through another route as well, not only through the starter relay.

This changes my previous post, apologies for that.

The diagram updated with the RE13 below.

CD6C9B40-15D3-4565-9D3B-437651C5529A.jpg

[Noel_ Colledge]

No problem Mattir, appreciate your help.

Ok so been out this morning and concluded the following.

Reconnected the magic box and tried individually removing the water temp sensor and the oil pressure switch wires. This gave me the same results as when the box was disconnected. IE no difference on the water, but the lights went out when the oil wire was removed. Neither though allowed the engine to crank.

I have checked all the wires into the 3 relays RE13, RE4 and RE2,3 or 7 can't make out the number. They are all the same type by the looks of it, for the cost of them I might try and find new ones anyway to be sure, but swapped them around a bit and made no difference. Although with your last comment about RE13 being the arm circuit Mattir it probably would not have made any difference if one of them was faulty I guess the result would be the same. Out of interest do you know what the 3rd one is for? I am guessing glow plug.

In digging around, I did find the remnants of an old security tracking device and decided to remove this just in case it was interfering with the circuits, but it wasn't.

Checked the wires to the alternator and all in place, although when checking the live feed to earth there is no current in either of the ignition switch positions. Should I not be expecting 12v at this point or based on your last post Mattir. Is this pointing at an issue with the starter relay do you think, and therefore would not be live yet as the relay has not kicked over?

Tried to check the starter motor but it seems these are buried deep in the engine, I believe below the hard to get at Alternator so not accessible for the spanner test. If I am looking in the wrong place or there is an easy route to it please advise. Failing that the only route as I see it is to whip the radiator out. Can't get to it from underneath as the exhaust box is in the way.

Might not be the right question to ask on an open forum, but as I have now taken apart the right hand arm and exposed the ignition unit, is it possible to "Hot wire" this directly to see if it is the unit at fault, and if so how do I do it?

Thanks

[Mattir]

No problem Mattir, appreciate your help.

Ok so been out this morning and concluded the following.

Reconnected the magic box and tried individually removing the water temp sensor and the oil pressure switch wires. This gave me the same results as when the box was disconnected. IE no difference on the water, but the lights went out when the oil wire was removed. Neither though allowed the engine to crank.

I have checked all the wires into the 3 relays RE13, RE4 and RE2,3 or 7 can't make out the number. They are all the same type by the looks of it, for the cost of them I might try and find new ones anyway to be sure, but swapped them around a bit and made no difference. Although with your last comment about RE13 being the arm circuit Mattir it probably would not have made any difference if one of them was faulty I guess the result would be the same. Out of interest do you know what the 3rd one is for? I am guessing glow plug.

In digging around, I did find the remnants of an old security tracking device and decided to remove this just in case it was interfering with the circuits, but it wasn't.

Checked the wires to the alternator and all in place, although when checking the live feed to earth there is no current in either of the ignition switch positions. Should I not be expecting 12v at this point or based on your last post Mattir. Is this pointing at an issue with the starter relay do you think, and therefore would not be live yet as the relay has not kicked over?

Tried to check the starter motor but it seems these are buried deep in the engine, I believe below the hard to get at Alternator so not accessible for the spanner test. If I am looking in the wrong place or there is an easy route to it please advise. Failing that the only route as I see it is to whip the radiator out. Can't get to it from underneath as the exhaust box is in the way.

Might not be the right question to ask on an open forum, but as I have now taken apart the right hand arm and exposed the ignition unit, is it possible to "Hot wire" this directly to see if it is the unit at fault, and if so how do I do it?

Thanks

Lets start with the relays. The order is in the pic.


B186268E-B03A-40E8-B53D-4BF64438D50E.jpg


Ok on the test with oil pressure switch. No gold there.

the RE13 is the hydraulics safety relay. It makes contact when the key switch is 1. The starter relay makes contact when RE13 and the safety micros switch are both making contact. Additionally, the Fuse 2 10 A should be ok. Maybe you could be able to feel the operation of the starter relay by lifting the safety port up and lowering it while key switch is in 1.

Alternator should have voltage in the R-connector when the key switch is in 1. It is in parallel with the stop solenoid and fuel pump. But this should not affect cranking. It just prevents the doug to start. The thicker wire from alternator is connected directly to the battery + pole and there u should have 12V all the time.

The how to get some kind of an access to the alternator is only from over the engine valve cover.
But if you would like get access to the starter, you need to dismantle air filter assembly and pull out the tank. In front of the tank there is one bolt. Take that away and pull the tank out. Then you can have some kind of a chance.

As I changed the starter motor, I dismantled the exhaust and silencer. That need to be done from below. You need 15 mm spanners and socket to release the silencer. Instead of the screwdriver test, you could take a wire from the battery + pole and touch the solenoid (the flat connector) with it.

The ignition switch is pretty complicated to describe here, but if you get voltage at the terminals C and R2 when starting. Pics below.

D49DA0EB-634F-4412-B58A-7475A75DD0FB.jpg

2D754D41-D046-4B3C-9FDA-B198B03726FC.jpg

Now i will go to a hot tub for a while :) happy hunting :)

[Muz]

I take it youve checked the 2 50/40 amp fuses under the seat ? I dont like the sound of a tracking unit being in there (from a fault finding point of view) would it have had a lock out procedure in the event of the owner discovering it stolen ?