EC15 won't stop - starter staying powered?

[xp677]

I've got a strange intermittent issue with an EC15. Maybe 1 time in 10, when turning the machine off, it stays running. Unplugging the stop solenoid kills it, along with a loud "whirring" noise which sounds like a motor spinning down, having just been unpowered.

What I think is happening is that the starter motor is staying powered up throughout, which is keeping the stop solenoid alive as well through it's cranking/pull coil.

Is this a common occurrence? It sounds like it could be a defective starter motor relay, but want to check before dropping money on one!

[Gecko]

If you don't have a mulitmeter, a simple test light will tell you if the solenoid is still powered.

[xp677]

The issue is that I'm struggling to recreate the fault. The solenoid connectors are also sealed, making it harder to attach a multimeter.

[Muz]

The starter has failed to disengage, (not uncommon) so the engine running 'it' will eventually burn it out, you will need to remove it and get it refurbed at a decent machine shop for a quarter of the price of a new one before it gets destroyed

[xp677]

Groovy, cheers for the info. This has only just started happening and now seems to happen quite regularly, is that normal?

Do you know what exactly is happening? Is the solenoid just stuck/gummed up? It's weird that it disengages when I kill power to the engine.

[Muz]

Groovy, cheers for the info. This has only just started happening and now seems to happen quite regularly, is that normal?

Do you know what exactly is happening? Is the solenoid just stuck/gummed up? It's weird that it disengages when I kill power to the engine.

Most usually its just fouling or lack of lube in the starter due to age, or wear of the components , I cant recollect the last time I changed any control gear ? .. its always been the motor

Your early attention is advised though, fire is a real risk.

[xp677]

That's great, cheers. I'll pull it tomorrow if the weather is good and see what's up with it.

If it's just fouled and there aren't any damaged parts, I'll see what I can do with it myself. It's gonna be hard to get it rebuilt in lockdown.

[Muz]

That's great, cheers. I'll pull it tomorrow if the weather is good and see what's up with it.

If it's just fouled and there aren't any damaged parts, I'll see what I can do with it myself. It's gonna be hard to get it rebuilt in lockdown.

Put 2-3 hrs aside to do that job to get it out .. mebbez shave a few minutes off if you read some post on here about the process .. its a bugger

[xp677]

I hard a read of your thread on it last night - I'm considering if it would be easier/quicker to pull the whole engine and tray vs having to deal with the exhaust in place. I imagine that by now, the exhaust bolts will be rusted in place, and better access would make it easier to remove them without snapping them (easier to get the blowtorch, penetrating oil etc in there)

The issue I can see with pulling the engine is that disconnecting the suction hose for the hydraulic pump will probably end up with all the hydraulic oil escaping. Not sure if the pump can be unbolted and set aside?

[Muz]

I hard a read of your thread on it last night - I'm considering if it would be easier/quicker to pull the whole engine and tray vs having to deal with the exhaust in place. I imagine that by now, the exhaust bolts will be rusted in place, and better access would make it easier to remove them without snapping them (easier to get the blowtorch, penetrating oil etc in there)

The issue I can see with pulling the engine is that disconnecting the suction hose for the hydraulic pump will probably end up with all the hydraulic oil escaping. Not sure if the pump can be unbolted and set aside?

The suction hose has some flex so will come forward with the engine, the HP line has to come off though and will drip a fair bit so I usually seal that too .. try the bolts first, they are well protected and shouldnt have rust on them

[xp677]

I managed to get the starter out today, took a little under 2 hours thanks to the useful thread by Muz from a while back.

Just to show how I did it...

Engine cover off, fuel tank and all the associated bits off as one





Engine bolts out, engine slid forward, hydraulic hose hung up on a bungee.




I removed the exhaust elbow at the manifold as the bolts were easier to reach. The exhaust pipe clamp was a bit of a pain, but the 4 exhaust muffler/tailpipe bolts were fine. Starter wasn't too tight, fortunately.




Here's the starter in bits. It has a date code of 0815, so looks like it's been replaced not too long ago. The solenoid, Bendix drive, and gearbox all look to be in great condition, everything moves very freely, not binding, no play in anything. The front bearing on the rotor is a little scratchy so I've ordered all new bearings. The brushes have loads of life left in them.



Considering the issue I have, this starter motor looks fine. There's minimal wear to the pinion gear, I took the corner off of each tooth in case it was causing the gear to bind up on the ring gear, but I don't think it will help.

Looking at the ring gear, there is extra wear in a couple of spots, common on any engine as the engine has "preferred" positions to stop at. since the Bendix drive is fully functioning, the only way the starter can stay engaged is if there is excessive friction between the ring and pinion teeth. I'll have a closer look at the ring gear tomorrow, perhaps the teeth are worn such that the pinion gear ends up sitting in a divot on certain ring gear teeth.

[Muz]

I managed to get the starter out today, took a little under 2 hours thanks to the useful thread by Muz from a while back.

Just to show how I did it...

Engine cover off, fuel tank and all the associated bits off as one





Engine bolts out, engine slid forward, hydraulic hose hung up on a bungee.




I removed the exhaust elbow at the manifold as the bolts were easier to reach. The exhaust pipe clamp was a bit of a pain, but the 4 exhaust muffler/tailpipe bolts were fine. Starter wasn't too tight, fortunately.




Here's the starter in bits. It has a date code of 0815, so looks like it's been replaced not too long ago. The solenoid, Bendix drive, and gearbox all look to be in great condition, everything moves very freely, not binding, no play in anything. The front bearing on the rotor is a little scratchy so I've ordered all new bearings. The brushes have loads of life left in them.



Considering the issue I have, this starter motor looks fine. There's minimal wear to the pinion gear, I took the corner off of each tooth in case it was causing the gear to bind up on the ring gear, but I don't think it will help.

Looking at the ring gear, there is extra wear in a couple of spots, common on any engine as the engine has "preferred" positions to stop at. since the Bendix drive is fully functioning, the only way the starter can stay engaged is if there is excessive friction between the ring and pinion teeth. I'll have a closer look at the ring gear tomorrow, perhaps the teeth are worn such that the pinion gear ends up sitting in a divot on certain ring gear teeth.

Its a bit annoying to find things in good order when its taken that amount of work to get it out , but ive never found any other fault that causes the problem you describe .. its always been the starter .. the only other thing that can go wrong is the key switch jamming on , and that just doesnt happen, unless youve got some other electrical fault energising the start wire, but if that were the case a mainfuse would get overloaded ? so it cant be that ... . Cant say Ive ever seen a date code on them either. Genuine Volvo stuff rarely hasanything on it to give anything away, they are famous for it, unless the label you found was a rebuild date for the starter, in which case they may have done the motor and brushes and contacts, but not the bendix, and thats the bit that will fail to release if dodgy .. I just did another one a month ago, only this one was just getting slower and slower 'intermittantly' but at other times was fine, eventually failing to start the machine intermittantly

There are other faults that affect them, such as, if the engines had a roasting (again not uncommon) because of where it is next to the exhaust it puts a huge thermal stress on the starter .. so you just dont know ?

Anyway keep us posted

[Muz]

Your expansion bottle does look very yellow as being 'heated' and I also notice youve no cab heater , is it a canopy machine ?

[xp677]

Cheers for the info. Yes the coolant bottle does look yellow, it's also missing the cap. The machine has 4500 hours on it, not sure if it's just age related. I replaced/flushed the coolant when I bought the machine and everything has been fine. Yes it's a canopy machine.

The key switch has been replaced in the past with a Durite unit, with a JCB key.

The starter motor looks like an aftermarket unit, there's no Volvo PN, I guess it's a generic L3E starter. But if it's been fine for 5 years, then I guess it's compatible with this machine!

I've refitted the starter, unplugged the stop solenoid, and tapped the key several times, every now and then, the starter doesn't retract (you can hear it "wind down" when it retracts, and stop abruptly when it doesn't), however since the engine doesn't start, the Bendix won't try to retract the pinion, so it's relying on spring pressure alone - not a good test.

As far as I know, the starter isn't fused on these machines. The solenoid is. Looking at the service drawings, the wiring is strange - the microswitches in the armrests are all that energise the starter relay - the ignition switch is connected to the common. So whenever you have the armrests down, the relay is energised. Strange.
I'll have a good look at the ring gear tomorrow.

[Muz]

Cheers for the info. Yes the coolant bottle does look yellow, it's also missing the cap. The machine has 4500 hours on it, not sure if it's just age related. I replaced/flushed the coolant when I bought the machine and everything has been fine. Yes it's a canopy machine.

The key switch has been replaced in the past with a Durite unit, with a JCB key.

The starter motor looks like an aftermarket unit, there's no Volvo PN, I guess it's a generic L3E starter. But if it's been fine for 5 years, then I guess it's compatible with this machine!

I've refitted the starter, unplugged the stop solenoid, and tapped the key several times, every now and then, the starter doesn't retract (you can hear it "wind down" when it retracts, and stop abruptly when it doesn't), however since the engine doesn't start, the Bendix won't try to retract the pinion, so it's relying on spring pressure alone - not a good test.

As far as I know, the starter isn't fused on these machines. The solenoid is. Looking at the service drawings, the wiring is strange - the microswitches in the armrests are all that energise the starter relay - the ignition switch is connected to the common. So whenever you have the armrests down, the relay is energised. Strange.
I'll have a good look at the ring gear tomorrow.

Ok so now your knowledge is growing with the fault perhaps I can offer more info ,.. ( dont mean to sound arrogant !!) In the earlier years of this machines production, if one ever got put on its side, it would usually burn a big end and shell because the engine wasnt shut off fast enough. At that time .. if the damage was bad enough and crank shaft couldn't be reground with thicker shells , and if it was too far gone .. you could not buy a new crank from Volvo .. it was crazy ? ... so myself like others went to Diamond Diesels , who were the Mitsi L3e importers and just bought a whole new engine, for probably similar money to a full L3E rebuild ..BUT! at that time they only offered the marine, marinised version, which had a couple of differences to the one fitted in the digger. Yours doesnt look like that one , because you'd have had to grind out a notch in the front engine mount to fit it which yours does not have, however, the important difference is that the crown ring, in which the starters engaged had a different number of teeth , I cant remember if the starters were the same or not, but the pinions would be slightly different but I know Ive lost track of what starters were in what engines, and I'm sure some others will have done too, so that could be another issue ! .. just an old boys FYI