Lifton LS850 wont drive uphill

[Muz]

Hi again Muz and a happy new year.
Thanks also for your contined interest. I agree that the max working pressure for the later 1001 models appears to be claimed in the service manual as 360 bar. (see attachment excerpt Section 5 page 18) But I'm still hoping that the pressure for the older 850 model is as stated in the attachment of my earlier post as 170 bar (?) The pressure guages will reveal all (I hope!) when Stevie & I can get them over here. However IF we find that the pressure of the pump is up to scratch is there a mechanism that determines how much of it goes to the front axle and how much goes to the rear axle?
Kind regards CL

[ATTACH=CONFIG]1146[/ATTACH]

Well thats a better looking manual than the one we have ! .. I'm still of the view that the stated 'working pressure' actually refers to the gear pump and not the Variable Displacement pump .. for which they have not specified a working pressure as far as I can see specifically. All they have done is quote a maximum pressure for the drives, so one can deduce that the VD pump operates at an altogether different range as you earlier post and pic shows, although even for the 1001 we dont have that pic you have showing the serial number differences, possibly because they standardised the system by then ?

Either way its crap not to have it listed in the manual and this is the problem and I agree with Dan that .. when a manual states a 'working pressure' you assume that is for the whole machine, but it doesent appear to be in this case.

However , as I alluded earlier hopefully we will be servicing a 1001 next week, and crack some lines and report with what we find. We have assumed we'll need to tie the dumper to a 13 tonner , fully load it and give it full welly on the throttle to get anywhere near its operating pressure for the drives ... that will be the test .. if it shows up at ~300 Bar then that will give you something to aim for

I need to see if we have the fittings though for the pipes as I mentioned earlier, they are quite large metrics.....

[Dan]

However , as I alluded earlier hopefully we will be servicing a 1001 next week, and crack some lines and report with what we find.

Yep boss ..... I have one waiting .... and waiting, guages at the ready

[CaptLimey]

Hi Muz & Dan

Thanks for the come back and 'bon chance' with the forthcoming service of the 1001. We'll be very interested in the pressure test result although I'm not sure if they'll be relevant to the older 850 which, according to the manual, is supposed to work on less than half the pressure of the later 1001, unless, as you surmise that rating relates to the gear pump and not the VD pump. (confusing or what???)
I downloaded the PDF of the manual from the internet, although I can't recall where I found it.
I'll try to attach it for you to have a look at, you'll probably make more sense of it than me!
Regards CL

Oops - just seen that PDF file format doesn't appear to be allowed as am image attachment. How can I get it to you, maybe as an attachment to a PM? I'll try that. CL

[Muz]

Hi Muz & Dan

Thanks for the come back and 'bon chance' with the forthcoming service of the 1001. We'll be very interested in the pressure test result although I'm not sure if they'll be relevant to the older 850 which, according to the manual, is supposed to work on less than half the pressure of the later 1001, unless, as you surmise that rating relates to the gear pump and not the VD pump. (confusing or what???)
I downloaded the PDF of the manual from the internet, although I can't recall where I found it.
I'll try to attach it for you to have a look at, you'll probably make more sense of it than me!
Regards CL

Oops - just seen that PDF file format doesn't appear to be allowed as am image attachment. How can I get it to you, maybe as an attachment to a PM? I'll try that. CL

That would be cool thanx

The forum is enabled for PDF's .. you just attach it like a picture,

but I think I found it here

http://products.wackerneuson.com/man...0144662_01.pdf

Wow .. thats so much more comprehensive

check out page 5-18 ? .. says high pressure is not adjustable , and I think its the same VD pump as the 850 ? ..

[CaptLimey]

Hi MUZ
Yes that's the same manual, glad you found it.
Please help me with the terminology used in section 2. They refer, on page 2-3, to 'Travelling Drive' and 'Work Hydraulics'. Am I to understand that the 'Travelling Drive' is the VD pump that supplies power to the axles and that 'Work Hydraulics' is the pump bolted to the front of the VD pump which supplies hydraulic power to the bucket lift and tip?
I agree the pump looks to be similar to our 850's pump but not exactly the same, maybe because our early 850 doesn't have a pedal operated brake, just a 'go' pedal and a handbrake but I can't be sure of that.
I've attached a couple of shots of our pump for comparison to the earlier pump image on page 5-1 of the manual, which is somewhat different to the image of the later pump on page 5-4. (All very confusing for us simple folk!)
Regards CL
RightSideLowerAdjustWEB.jpgRightSideRearAdjustWEB.jpgRightSideUpperAdjustWEB.jpg

[Muz]

They refer, on page 2-3, to 'Travelling Drive' and 'Work Hydraulics'. Am I to understand that the 'Travelling Drive' is the VD pump that supplies power to the axles and that 'Work Hydraulics' is the pump bolted to the front of the VD pump which supplies hydraulic power to the bucket lift and tip?

Yes it Looks like thats what they mean .

However this spec quoted from that page doesent even make sense ?


before number............. ..blah .................... . after
Flow rate .................. .. 99 l/min ............. . 54.6 kW <<
Max. service pressure.... 360 bar ................. 350 bar


Even more confusing from that page .. It looks as though theres also another boost pump of gear type built into the Vd pump which has a working pressure of 20~25 Bar

I agree the pump looks to be similar to our 850's pump but not exactly the same, maybe because our early 850 doesn't have a pedal operated brake, just a 'go' pedal

Our 1001's dont have a brake pedal either ..even though there is one in the pics on the manual However we have a 3001 that does!!

Looks like they change their product specs on a daily basis

[CaptLimey]

Hi Muz

Yeah specs seem to change depending on what publication manual and even then what page you're looking at! Maybe because over the years various companies were combined ... Lifton became Waker became Neuson etc. etc. If you're confused what about us poor amateurs?

We'll be very interested on the pressures you find and where you attach the guages when you/Dan service your 1001. I'd be grateful for a few shots as you proceed, to indicate how we can test the pressures our 850 is producing. I'm coming over to the UK next month for a short visit and I'll bring our new guages back with me. When the weather allows we'll do some pressure testing ourselves.

Rgds CL

[Muz]

Ok sorry its taken sooo long finally got this machine in for a service and put test guage onto the top test port as below

Img_1762.jpg

And with the dumper secured .. we slowly raised the revs to maximum, with both axles trying to turn, but just failing to .. in forward and the guage did indeed read just over 300 Bar

IMG_1761.jpg

Theres another test port just below that .. but it looks like a pilot test port and only read 50~60 Bar off/on load. We didnt see any point in breaking into an axle line, as this was cleary the correct service pressure, and the dumper is operating normally in every respect.

Hope thats of some use guys

[Dan]

Ok sorry its taken sooo long finally got this machine in for a service and put test guage onto the top test port as below

[ATTACH=CONFIG]1332[/ATTACH]

And with the dumper secured .. we slowly raised the revs to maximum, with both axles trying to turn, but just failing to .. in forward and the guage did indeed read just over 300 Bar

[ATTACH=CONFIG]1333[/ATTACH]

Theres another test port just below that .. but it looks like a pilot test port and only read 50~60 Bar off/on load. We didnt see any point in breaking into an axle line, as this was cleary the correct service pressure, and the dumper is operating normally in every respect.

Hope thats of some use guys

Four thousand, five hundred PSI and he's holding it

[CaptLimey]

Muz many thanks for posting the test result and pics.

Sorry for the late reply, I've just come back from the 'Old Country' to France, having collected the new testing gauges, to find 4" of snow! It's just beginning to melt so I won't be doing any testing for a day or two. But when I do your pics and advice will be very useful.

The manual says that the other test point, behind the forward test point, is the pilot pressure point. There is a reverse test point on the right side low and forward but there is no union connector on it on our machine.

Question- Are we correct in assuming that if our pump isn't producing enough pressure at the forward test point, i.e. 300 bar or more, it will not be producing enough pressure at the reverse test point?

Dan - when I do the test I think I'll wear goggles and my welding gloves!!!

Thanks again to all for your help and advice. Regards CL

[jackpreacher]

Have you found the pressure relief ports? Is it just a matter of adjusting them or is it not that simple?

[Muz]

Question- Are we correct in assuming that if our pump isn't producing enough pressure at the forward test point, i.e. 300 bar or more, it will not be producing enough pressure at the reverse test point?

You would expect so, since the test port is on the pump, which would rule out any other regulator or valve problem

Have you found the pressure relief ports? Is it just a matter of adjusting them or is it not that simple?

You have a valid question Jack ..apart from the ancilliary valves that do the steering and tipping, I dont know if their is a relief port externally, for the drives there must be somewhere though, because the engine did not stall when we did our test. It could be that each drive motor has its own relief but more likely to be some other gizmo in line not doing its job right


.... if the pump is giving the full shabang ... then at least that can be eliminated (the benfit of the test guages ) .. then its just a matter of tracking down the bottle neck

[CaptLimey]

Nice bright sunny day yesterday so I thought it a good opportunity to test the pump pressure. Got the new kit out containing oodles of tee pieces, micro bore hose, two gauges and multiple connectors.........but not one that fits our test point!

I thought about breaking into a hydraulic motor feed line with a tee but I really don't want to disturb things unnecessarily and have to bleed the system.

So spoke with very helpful chappie at Hydrotechnik, the suppliers of the kit and after I sent him shots of the test point he confirmed that we need an adaptor to connect the JCB familiar kit. Adaptor ordered and hopefully arriving next week. Watch this space!

Rgds CL

[jackpreacher]

Nice bright sunny day yesterday so I thought it a good opportunity to test the pump pressure. Got the new kit out containing oodles of tee pieces, micro bore hose, two gauges and multiple connectors.........but not one that fits our test point!

I had the same issue with my little Volvo EC15 [see this thread] The kit Muz had recommended had the test port with it, it was just a matter of releasing the original test port and installing the one from the kit and leaving it in............could possibly be the same for you....maybe Muz knows?

[Muz]

Nice bright sunny day yesterday so I thought it a good opportunity to test the pump pressure. Got the new kit out containing oodles of tee pieces, micro bore hose, two gauges and multiple connectors.........but not one that fits our test point!

I thought about breaking into a hydraulic motor feed line with a tee but I really don't want to disturb things unnecessarily and have to bleed the system.

So spoke with very helpful chappie at Hydrotechnik, the suppliers of the kit and after I sent him shots of the test point he confirmed that we need an adaptor to connect the JCB familiar kit. Adaptor ordered and hopefully arriving next week. Watch this space!

Rgds CL

I had the same issue with my little Volvo EC15 [see this thread] The kit Muz had recommended had the test port with it, it was just a matter of releasing the original test port and installing the one from the kit and leaving it in............could possibly be the same for you....maybe Muz knows?

Wowsa both you guys ? ... my kit had the right adaptors straight off its a very standard test port fitting with a very course thread ? .. I never needed to change the port on the test machine ? my lines just screwed straight on ?

sorry to hear about that CL and Jack .. look forward to your results CL